Why Teams OS 2.0 Could Be So Important to So Many

**SohodojoJim** · 2006-10-03, 09:55 PM

Ken and David (the Teams OS developer team),

As I have said to you both via personal email, I believe Teams OS is the single most important and most needed Sugar OS extension project. (This is not to detract from the quality and importance of the many other great projects.)

The price point on the Pro version of five seats on an annual renewal basis disproportionately penalizes the very small, independent business and networks of collaborating independent business professionals. Yet such small businesses and independent professionals are very often the "infection points" that can get SugarCRM into targeted medium and large businesses. But to spread these infection points, we need a SugarCRM OS version that encourages and supports team collaboration in the manner that the Pro version does.

In addition to supporting team collaboration in the private business context and perhaps more importantly, Teams OS 2.0 will make it possible to use SugarCRM for non-profit and grassroots community organizations where budgets are perpetually tight and funding is so much an issue. Many NPO volunteers' first exposure to new systems technologies are through their volunteer activities in tech-savvy NPOs and grassroots community organizations. Given this exposure, these folks go back to their employment companies with tales of direct experience with new systems that have not yet made it through the enterprise front door.

Knowing this, Sugar corporate should consider funding the Teams OS project, and then launch an NPO and Community Organization Support Program and a Very Small Business and Independent Professionals Network Support Program. Sugar corporate could then capitalize on the MarComm (marketing communications) value of success stories among NPOs, community organizations, very small businesses, and networks of independent professionals. The many local and trade publications are hungry for such success stories while they routinely turn down yet another drab tale of how MegaCorp made yet another billion by installing a new blah-blah-blah enterprise information system.

Folks like us and the organizations I've mentioned -- contrary to marketing folks' often unfounded opinions -- are very often the opinion leaders and entry points that bring new technologies into enterprises through the back door while the front gate is jealously guarded by IT execs and their too-cozy and entrenched vendor reps. We're valuable "change insurgent" partners rather than the flotsam we are too often assumed to be.

Short of a leveling the playing field of Pro version pricing and volume license requirements, the best alternative for small businesses and independent contractor networks needing team features is the Teams OS project.

I believe the Teams OS extension project will ultimately open a floodgate of new users and new opportunities for broad use of SugarCRM in as-yet-untapped markets for both the Sugar community and for Sugar corporate.

Ken and David, Thank You and Keep up the Good and Important Work,
--Jim Salmons--
Sohodojo, http://sohodojo.com

**Proware** · 2006-10-04, 02:18 AM

You are treading on very touchy ground here with the Teams Modification.

Rather than embracing this module, the Sugar folk probably hate it with a passion!!

I posted this into the Professional section of the Forum but feel it is now relevant here. I repost it word for word.

Let me know what you think?

Cheers
David Younger
TSM

-----------------------------------------------------

I just posted an email about licensing and it prompted me to ponder why I even use the Professional version.

as far as I recall, there were 2 reasons I purchased Pro.

1. I need team management. We run sales reps all over the place and need to be able to segment all aspects of sugar by Teams.

2. We needed detailed reporting.

So, do I think I get value for money.

Well frankly, no I don't.

We also run a telemarketing team - and Sugar is just not kitted out for this.
We do complex multi-part campaigns - Sugar us very lacking in this area, especially in the analysis component.
We have many opportunities logged but because you can't link opportunities to campaigns, we have no way of directly knowing What the campaign brought in in revenues vs its cost.
We tend to use sugar more for others benefit, not the logged in user but you can't even choose another users calendar to display.
And what about the calendar, I create phone calls and appointments for up to 20 sales reps each day. But when I look at my calendar, all their cals appear in my calendar- why? I can't for the life of me see what I am up to - and why should I see calls in my calendar anyway?

Now I know you will say that I can modify the code to make it do this and that and in fact, out of necessity I have done so. But I don't want to be a programmer any more. The things I need are basic requirements of my type of organisation. sugar is ibviously not set up for my type of company.

But why not? My requirements surely can not be unique. Am I the only company making calls / appointments for others. Surely not every business user out there uses Sugar prely for their managing their own personal information.

And back to the main point, the original reason I purchased Sugar. Point 1 is Teams management. this is vital to my company. But the implementation is at beast rudimentary with little thought to the workflow using team management, just a technical approach to hiding some data from others.

Take a look at contacts / accounts. I can't even search by team. How stupid is that? And now that there is a teams mode for the OS version, why do I need Pro? I am sure that the OS teams mod developer would implement most of my suggestions if I put it to them. Also, look at any field that lets you select a user. Does it filter out the list of users by my team rights - no. Sure it filters out the resulting data but imagine I have 200 repas across the world - what a pain. And why cant I select a team rather than specific users?

Then there is the reports module. How stupid not to put reporting into the OS version - who doesn't need this. You don't differentiate versions of your product by leaving out vital components. You provide lal the basic components in the OS version and then you add on significant functional enhancements and additional non-critical modules in the Pro version.

For example, campaign management in OS should be rudimentary, allowing a campaign to be created, a single tracker URL and other basic things. But in Pro, it should be all bells and whistles. Just enough in OS to wet my appetite and then pay for the Pro version for all the bells and whistles.

This "upsell" of features must perculate across all modules, not in just one or 2 strategic points.

So where is the benefit in Pro? I can now do teams in OS, I can now have reports in OS, so what else is there? I can't see it.

So I ask the question - should I keep paying for Pro or go back to the OS version?

**sanver** · 2006-10-04, 05:27 AM

Dear Jim Salmons, David Younger and all Sugar users,

Teams OS can be very empowering for small organisations and Professionals. There is no doubts about that.

SugarCRM is a shining example of sucess of Open Source movement. Rather than complain that one has to pay steep price for Professional Version only for getting "Teams Module and Reporting Module" (as per David), I think we should thank Open Source movement and people like Jim who are making it possible for the SugarOpenSource users to enjoy some of enhanced features of Pro version.

I fully agree with David when he says that OS version should have basic features and Pro should have full fledged features ("with all bells and whistels") not only for Campaign module but for other modules as well.

As far as reporting module of Pro is concerned, I do not think the lack of it in OS version is any handicap. The 4.5 OS version is much more powerful and you can always export data and get reports using Excel or Access.

Microsoft's pricing structure forces people (esp. small organisations) to use pirated software (esp. in developing countries). Open Soucre movement has given people a opportunity to not only to use good software but also to contribute towards it's development if they wish to do so.

Cheers Sugar Team and all developers who contribute to Sugar.

Sanjay Verma
Sanver E-Solutions
www.sanver.com
Mumbai, India
+919892481284

**Proware** · 2006-10-04, 06:32 AM

Hi Sanjay,

Firstly, if you have a close look at my post, you will find it is not a complaint, nor a criticism of Sugar but a discussion point as to where the distinction is with the Pro version and if, due to the availability of Teams and Zucker reports, I no longer require the Pro version but can go back to the OS version.

Yes - congratulations to the OS community that has turned things around where 6 months ago, I was forced to purchase the Prov ersion due to particular requirements of my company and today, that situation has changed.

Commiserations to the Sugar team who is putting all of their efforts into building a better Sugar all round but perhaps has not thought far enough ahead on the effect the bottom line of not taking the 4.5 opportunity to cement the differences between Pro and OS. There should never be the situation where the availability of free modules (and only 2 in my case) is the entire difference between paying for Pro or going with the free version.

As for you Sanjay, I think you are in no position to make assumptions about what is and is not important for me in an OS version. The area of integrated reporting is absolutely critical, not something to bump off to data export and excel import.

Our users are australia wide, of varying levels of IT literacy and need to produce a bunch of canned reports regularly and easily. This is not possible with excel export or something similar. Reports for us are not something you occasionally produce but an integral part of day to day activities.

Come on Sugar team, what is your stance on Pro versus OS? What is your future plans in this area? Where are you going? Give me a good reason to stay withh the Pro version because I am not in a rush to leave but need a good reason to justify the expense!!

**dtokeefe** · 2006-10-04, 06:43 PM

Hi all,

I agree with those who think Sugar OS should have Teams and Reports built in, but I can also see why these are features of the paid versions only. Sugar CRM needs to make a return on the US $26 million invested in them.

We developed Teams and Reports modules because a client needed them and didn't want to go with the paid versions (for their own reasons). We also have some experience with the old Teams Security module, which was discontinued by Mr. Milk, leaving many users stuck on Sugar 3.5. The challenge for the Open Source user community is to figure out how to support the development and maintenance of useful (and necessary) features.

Programming help is by far the best way to support open source, but clearly most people in the forum are not programmers (and Sugar development is pretty advanced programming). It is very difficult (read "expensive" in programmer time) to keep up with the Sugar release schedule. It is also difficult to maintain compatibility among various third-party modules that modify core files.

The users who cannot program and cannot afford or would rather not pay for Pro licenses ought to think about how they might join together to fund development of the features they need. Donations and bounties have been discussed in other forum threads. I'd love to see someone make this a reality.

Cheers.

David

**Proware** · 2006-10-04, 08:44 PM

Perhaps we can start an e-marketplace where users post their required modules and programmers post their bids to do the work.

If someone posts a lower bid then the original developer might choose to adjust their bid down.

Then other users can post how much they are willing to pay until the combined sum reaches the bid amount.

Now if only I was a programmer?

What do you think - should the Sugar Team develop this for us or can omeone else do it?

Wow - this is a great idea!!

**dtokeefe** · 2006-10-05, 02:15 PM

Actually, that marketplace already exists: check out www.rentacoder.com. There are usually a few SugarCRM projects for bid there.

What happens in open source is a bit different, however. A feature, say Teams, is useful to many people and organizations. It would be expensive to develop if only one organization pays, but would be cheap if all beneficiaries could/would share the costs.

It is a classic "commons" or "free-rider" problem in economics. Everyone wants to exploit the benefits. Few have any incentive to contribute to the commons.

Also interesting is that SugarCRM's price point for Pro is well below what it would cost to add the interesting Pro features to OS by hiring programmers in the US. However, if you hire Brazilians, Chinese, Indians, Russians, etc., the cost-benefit equation takes a different form, especially when you consider the down-the-road costs of the Sugar license (year 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.).

What could work would be a non-profit fund that would take contributions and distribute them to developers, managing also the development agenda and priorities. This is essentially how some open source projects already work, although usually there is a primary organization that pays most of the bills and drives the agenda.

Donations can work (the guy who invented BitTorrent supports his family with donations), although it remains to be seen how many members of the Sugar Community are ready to put up any money at all to get the software they want.

Looking forward to others' thoughts on this topic.

David