Bit confused about the COMMUNITY part of SugarCRM

[rightfoot]

I've been on here looking around for answers on getting VoiceRD working for a few days now. I've come across so many long winded replies from, um, not so nice people, that I thought I'd take the time to give my own perspective after only a short while being here. Take it as input, not as my wanting to argue with anyone. I could just as simply browse away to another site and never say anything.

I have to wonder when I keep coming across so many jaded programmers these days. Seems if they aren't smart enough to actually make money from their work, that they have to spend their time coming down on potential new users to the software. What a stupid catch 22 that is.

It seems that today, most major open source apps come with the usual 'don't complain, it's free', yet, but come on, let's get real, it's never really free. Everything comes at a cost, even if it's having to spend a ton of time figuring things out because you can't afford support. Perhaps some will never buy support, but the fact is, perhaps many will buy support, when they can afford it.

Sure, the programmers might have programmed it but the users give a lot of feedback which tech heads might (probably) never notice on their own (as they would be the only ones using it). It takes a compliment of people to make complex software and it's tiring to see programmers pretty much calling end users freaking sponges.

The forums are filled with hot headed replies, I'm already nervous about posting for help for fear of being flamed by some of these people. Are you trying to scare all of the end users away by making them feel stupid for not being as knowledgeable as you are since you're the programmer??? That certainly seems like the case when I come across so many flames to people asking for help.

Who cares whether they googled or searched the forums enough for your liking, just help them out. If you sell them on your software, they will in turn tell someone else, and you'll have another user. Stop crying about being sponged off of and just create yourself an opportunity if you're that concerned about people taking your hard work. That's such a lame argument. If you're that good, then start selling support for the product, start making money, start consulting, do something other than freaking cry to potential new users.
Besides, just like the end user, no one is forcing YOU to program it so why are you complaining so much?

I for one have been playing with this for a few days now, and can see many opportunities for something we've been wanting to bundle up as services, turning customers we consult for, into commercial customers for SugarCRM.

However, I might also have to give it up. I use a lot of open source tools and yes, I do spend the time to learn them but I don't want to learn them to their total technical levels. I just want to be able to use something and not have to spend weeks trying to figure out how to make something work on it.

Before you accuse me of not taking the time to learn, give it a break, most people using tools like this are already using lots of other tools like this and there's only so much time to learn new things. Can't be a pro at everything you touch. If I can't get modules to work relatively quickly enough and without too much headache, I'll simply have to move on and find another app that will do the trick for me. I repeat, I don't want to become a technical wizard of this software, I just want to be able to use it effectively, without having to learn to program to do so. In other words, I want to count on the programming community to make this a product I can use, based on input I can provide as an end user. Programmers crying the blues that I don't want to take the time to learn this should either not reply or go find a job that they can feel good about and recognize that it really does take both sides to make something good, it's called collaboration.

Anyhow, flame me all the hell you want, I'm not trying to reach you flamers, I'm hoping to reach the cool folks who will see my post as input and nothing more.

As a side note, I can't believe that such a cool app doesn't have 100% tie in to asterisk/trixbox for voice mail access as well as call control. Man, that seems like it should have been a given early on in it's life.

RightFoot

[SugarDev.net]

Thank you for your post. To be honest, I get a little confused about your post!

What do you really want to say? Is it that the community asks you to write program code in order to make the changes you request? That's right, SugarCRM is:

1. a framework for a CRM app, with customization/tailoring/expansion options
2. a rigid business app, with 1 vision in mind (that you're US-based, don't want to full-text search your records and that you don't have users that forget their password).

If you're not happy with the path that Sugar's people laid out for you, you have to alter the application at the code level for anything more then a layout/field change. Therefore, if you're really serious about your CRM needs, I suggest you get a pro from the beginning and not even try to understand the technicalities discussed in this forums. Don't expect any COTS (commercial off the shelve) product to be tailored to your business. Not a CRM product anyway (maybe a text editor can be, though).

Please understand that most of the technical people here are doing this in their spare time. That's no excuse for flaming, but most of us will probably not be interested in every possible mindset of all (potential) users. I, for myself, don't want to think about implementing yet another workflow for some user, but more about a framework that lets users actually design a variety of workflows in the app themselves! Of course, this is just an example.

About your sidenote: Astrisk/Trixbox implementation:
1. For contributors it's hard to implement because it hacks sugarcrm code, which is not nice
2. can't speak for sugarcrm but since it's not implemented I'm sure they have their reasons.

[Angel]

Just my 2 cents....

Being one of those individuals that has a natural tendency to be somewhat direct at times, I have to point out that your comments are more than a bit off base.

First and foremost, the notion of 'don't complain, it's free' -- while it is a prevailing attitude in many open source circles, it doesn't mean it applies here. I would agree that there are individuals that make comments that might insinuate that point or perhaps even outright state it, but I would disagree with someone implying that those individuals are representative of the majority of the Sugar community. In addition, Sugar themselves are very upfront about dispelling that notion through their own work and words. I know I've seen messages from Sugar employees such as Andy and Clint where they essentially assert the contrary.

As for the programmers...well, I am not sure I would agree that people in the Sugar community are jaded in any way, but I do agree that some folks in other circles do need to relax. The people that like to equate Bill Gates with the devil come to mind. Anyway, like I said, I wouldn't agree to the statement that the Sugar community is jaded. Certainly, some discussions get heated, sometimes deservedly so. In the end, it is usually because everyone is passionate about their point of view on how to improve the software, not because they are passionate about calling someone a sponge, idiot, lazy or whatever else. As a matter of fact, I can't recall ever having seen those words come up even in the more heated discussions.

I don't know if I fall into the "programmer" classification you mention, but I know some of my messages can be rather direct at times, maybe even short. It is not my intention to be rude, that's just the way I speak and it spills over into my writing. I just don't like to sugar coat things (no pun intended), so I don't. Lacking the tone of my voice and facial expressions via these forums makes it seem more like I am being rude, when in fact I am not. I am sure the same can be said for a number of other people that you have in mind. You also need to remember that while you and I might be able to clearly communicate in English, not everyone in the community is a native English speaker (even I am not). Point being, things get lost not only in the translation, but also due to the fact that it has to be communicated in written format, then on top of that, just general cultural differences. e.g. I have relatives in the NYC area and they think everyone out here in California is polite/nice, which I wouldn't agree with. Yet, at the same time, I think people in Nevada are more polite/nice than here in California. In reality, it is just a difference in perspective as to who is less rude. LOL

Lastly, you mention that you don't have the desire to become an expert to the level of others and that it is unrealistic to expect someone to know everything about everything. I couldn't agree more with your latter point, but I would remind you that what is true for you is also true for everyone else, but you seem to be holding it against everyone else.

For example, my experience with VoiceRD is limited to knowing what the product does and not much further. I don't have any hands on experience with it, and as such, I wouldn't present myself to a client as an expert at it because I'd be lying. I've had people contact me about work relating to other technologies and have turned them away because of my lack of experience with it. I don't have a problem with doing that. It is not good for myself or the company I work for, nor is it good for the client. Sometimes people insist because they know us, but at that point, it is more a matter of their comfort level.

The point in all this is that just because you need a VoiceRD/Sugar expert that can help you for free doesn't mean one exists. I would venture to say that the VoiceRD folks are more than capable of helping you along, but I am sure they'd want to be compensated for their time too. They are already giving out their software for free, it seems fair to me that they would want to be compensated for anything else beyond that, but that's just me. Maybe I am being too fair. Much like you don't like jaded programmers, I am not very fond of the attitude that one is entitled to everything one wants at no cost. But then again, that's just me.

So, in my opinion, what you've done is highlight the fact that there is a shortage of VoiceRD/Sugar experts. Much like you've said, you can't expect people to be experts at everything, it would seem to me that VoiceRD is one of those things that the majority of the community has decided to not become experts at for varying reasons. I know my reason, I have no idea why others choose not to work with it as much as other things, or for that matter, if it is even a choice for them.

From my perspective, there is an opportunity there for someone that wants to take the time to become an expert at it, but that doesn't mean it has to be me, nor do I expect the guy next to me to be the one to do it.

[rightfoot]

Lot's of assumptions being made about my post but it's not about Everyone or the whole community.

My post was just that, thoughts on how I felt and wondered how many just leave, never even bothering to say anything, moving on to other projects. While you might think that's not a loss, you'll never know will you.

My post is not about the whole community, nothing to do with the software itself, you're missing the point if you think my post was about the software, even if I was also one of those asking for help.

It's about the junk I've read which made me almost decide to leave. My saying I don't want to become an expert doesn't mean I want free help, again, that's too much of an assumption. I'm willing to learn what I have to and the point is that with input, things can work out for everyone. So, asking questions should not lead to long rants agains those are are asking the questions or asking for help.

it's about how we treat people, potential new users who could bring yet more users to a potentially great product. Try not to scare them all off.

>but I would disagree with someone implying that those individuals are representative of
>the majority of the Sugar community.

And no, I never said everyone was like that, I said it gets tiring to see this in many forums these days, including these.

Perhaps learn from one persons input rather than trying to play who's right or who's wrong.

[Angel]

Perhaps learn from one persons input rather than trying to play who's right or who's wrong.

My mistake...I don't know why your following comment led me to believe you were making a generalization:

The forums are filled with hot headed replies, I'm already nervous about posting for help for fear of being flamed by some of these people.

But I guess now I am one of those hot heads...LOL

[rightfoot]

My mistake...I don't know why your following comment led me to believe you were making a generalization:

But I guess now I am one of those hot heads...LOL

Seems pretty clear to me. They are filled with such comments. Maybe you need to re-read old threads .

Anyhow, like I said, it's just food for thought, whether I'm over the top or not means nothing. I could have just walked away but I wanted to give feedback instead. Take it as you will folks.

[eggsurplus]

Are you trying to scare all of the end users away by making them feel stupid for not being as knowledgeable as you are since you're the programmer?

I've noticed there are a few on here who are pretty hard on new users asking for help

I don't know what areas you're looking in but I haven't seen anyone go out of their way to scare people away here. We're all mostly here for the same reason; trying to get our stuff done. Some of us, myself included, sometimes just make quick one line answers to help as our available time is minimal. For the majority, we try to help each other out as much as possible because we all need help ourselves from time to time.

If you did get some rude answers perhaps the person(s) just felt that their own precious time that they use to help here was being taken advantage of. Another possibility is that the knowledge that you're asking for was hard fought for by that someone and they don't want to give it away freely to someone who hasn't at least put in some minimal work in to get started (such as searching for the answer that exists on the forum or wiki). I'm not saying that's right or wrong but I have to admit I feel that way sometimes as I don't like to be the search engine for someone.

[SugarDev.net]

Right, I suppose I was the one talking about the software right away... . I actually missed that people part!

Totally agree with eggsurplus: Information should be written only once, and then be searchable with one search phrase. Ideally. But at least that should be the goal (it's mine, in any case). This is a win-win: the asker gets his answer much faster and the expert can go on doing new things.

[eNick]

Rightfoot,

Your post seems to me like a reasonable point of view. It's true there are people on here that probably can't make a career out of programming. By contrast, there are also people on here who, time and time again, ask for help on everything that is in the first few pages in the manual. I think you can forgive short tempered replies in such an instance.

But on the whole, people go out of their way to provide sensible answers - I'd like to put myself in that category and you're welcome to search my posts to see if I do.

I don't agree with your comment "It's open source, what do you expect" I think a more accurate quote would be "It's a public forum, what do you expect".

Unless you want to pay money for guarenteed useful support from Sugar, you're going to have to take the rough with the smotth, ignore replies from those who don't know what they're doing and be gratious to those who take time out of providing their own customers paid support to give you it for nadda.

Just my thoughts and no wish to get in an argument. As I said, I think many of your points are actually valid, but we're not all like that.

[clint]

Hi all -

Good thread. Lots of good points in here. A few observations of my own.

In general, I have always been quite impressed with the high standard of professionalism and helpfulness that you find here in the Sugar community. Like in any community, there are however exceptions to that.

I rarely find people in these forums rude just to be rude. It's usually a case of somebody who is frustrated because they are looking for an answer with no luck. Then the next person replies to that frustration with their own frustrated/impassioned response and the flames ensue.

I think in general you will find that if a Sugar community member knows the answer to a question, they will share that answer. If no one responds to your question, it is rarely because they don't want to answer but that they don't know the answer.

This is the case with the VoiceRD/Sugar integration questions you had. The community members who built and maintain this module all work for the company that builds the VoiceRD solution and monitor a dedicated forum on the http://forums.voicerd.org site specifically for their SugarCRM integration module. I suggest asking your questions there and you will likely better answers from the experts.

Hope this helps.